hi everyone, new to site…
Tim,
Actually, breeding for black in any fish seems to be detrimental to the health of the fish. The fish with a natural black coloration seem to do fine, but those bred to create a black strain can have all kinds of health issues, including, and most often, a propensity for cancer. I seem to recall reading, some time ago, that the problems are created by the mechanism that produces the black pigment. I’d need to do some research on that to confirm or deny my memory here.
\Steve//
> —–Original Message—– > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of > dewdude35 > Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 1:12 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: hi everyone, new to site… > > thanks ray, for someone who claims to not know much on swordtails, it > seems you have taken the time to look that up. thanks for the info. I > did spend several hours last night on the ALA site. I do appreciate > the nudge to that site. Not a total newb to the net, but the part I am > looking at now, yeah I am still learning where the reputable sites > pertaining to fish are. It certainly opens the world to us and gets us > wanting much different things in our tanks. Before we were dependent > upon our local pet stores to bring fish to us, the net is a powerful > tool. The first tank I got running is for my son, he has autistic > tendencies and is quite fascinated by the aquariums at the doctors > office. The second one, the one I am looking at putting the koi angels > in, pretty much was going to only have a mating pr in, maybe a pleco? > Not sure how deep in the hobby I will get this time. The last time I > got out when we had a bad ice storm, no power for over a week and I > lost everything. 5 tanks worth. > > That info was a huge help. His eyes are black by the way. Most of the > females I have seen locally have a lighter saddle, more white, no red > along the lateral line, or they closer resemble the green swords. I > know there can be (hope I use the proper word) dimorphic > appearances..different color patterns for each sex… > > learned alot last night… found it very interesting to learn that the > black pigment in the black swords is cancerous to them…that in > itself is disappointing to learn. > > http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/breeding/Drew_Black_swords.html > > Thank you again for the info. > > Tim > > > > — In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, “Raymond Wetzel” > wrote: > > > > Hi Tim (redfishbluefish), No harm done, and no hard feelings — seems > > like you just made the mistake of overlooking the message > > (texas_tears2000) I was replying to; I trust you’ve seen her message > > since. As a moderator (on another group) yourself, you’re probably > > aware that it would serve me (or this group) no purpose to shoot you > > down or get you bent out of shape. > > > > Yes, this is one of the most active yahoo groups going, on aquarium- > > related subjects. As it appears you are learning, aquarium > > maintenance technology has advanced over the years and with it, > > easier and more dependable continuance of your aquarium inhabitants. > > It does sometimes seem a wonder that we were able to keep anything > > alive years ago (LOL), but then, fish were hardier back then for the > > most part — besides, those fish didn’t know anymore than we did > > . Many years back, cycling was unheard of; no one cycled their > > tanks yet there never seemed to be any problems stemming from that. > > > > Yeah, I understand your reluctance about having fish shipped to you > > at this time of year. It was for that reason why I advised you to > > wait for warmer weather. Heat packs can be unreliable, especially in > > below freezing weather or if there’s a delay during shipping. Then > > too, when handling the shipment after its arrival at your nearest > > airport, the cargo handlers may not bring the plane’s load inside > > from the tarmac in a timely manner. > > > > Koi Angels would be a good choice and while some recommendations may > > not subscribe housing them in as small of a tank as a 30 gallon, many > > Angelfish breeders use just that size for a breeding pair. The fry > > could not be raised with the parents, however, if this was your > > plan. Being somewhat newer, Koi Swordtails are increasingly gaining > > in popularity, even here in the Northeast and while their pattern is > > striking I can see why you prefer staying with the Pineapple strain; > > the male you have is exceedingly nice. Too bad about those Black > > Swordtails that died in your LFS’s tank. Perhaps he’ll get more in, > > in the future, when you would then have no problem placing them in > > one of your tanks. > > > > Getting back to your main topic of interest, I hadn’t replied to it > > as I don’t consider myself a Swordtail expert, but while any certain > > strain’s characteristics should be confined to its original > > developments, you’ll find that these characteristics can vary over > > time as the variety is continued by various breeders. I mention > > this, as what you’re expecting to find in trying to obtain female > > Pineapple Swordtails may vary somewhat from the pattern you presently > > have. > > > > In checking out your photo on this Group-Site as well as the same one > > you posted on the ALA (for those members unfamiliar with this > > abbreviation, its — American Livebearers Association) Site (which by > > the way has more definition on the ALA for some reason), from your > > male’s color pattern it appears as if this line may have come > > partially from Albino Pineapple Swords. As far as I can tell by your > > photos though, your male’s eyes are black; please state if they’re > > red, I can’t determine. > > > > Now as for the other common names you question for this same strain, > > from what I’m aware, while Neon Swordtails are very similar to the > > Pineapple — even having the red saddle — some of their traits are > > closer to the original Green Swordtail in that their prominent > > longitudinal line is black — not red, as in yours. Their fins are > > shaded much more yellow, not orange-red as is yours. The sword on > > the Neon Swordtail is completely outlined in black, again > > unmistakenly including this part of the Green Swordtail’s traits. > > The Pineapple Swordtail’s sword is only partially outlined, but still > > much more so than the Candy. > > > > The Candy Swordtail, again being very similar, has no red along the > > top, nor are its dorsal or caudal fins solid orange-red but instead > > heavily speckled orange-red over yellowish fins. Whereas your fish’s > > secondary horizontal lines are blackish, the Candy Swordtail’s > > secondary lines are also red as is its primary/prominent heavy > > horizontal line. Its sword is not as well outlined (in black) as > > either the Pineapple or the Neon Swords. > > > > As all three strains are quite close in appearance, it seems evident > > that they may well have been derived from one original line, although > > I can’t say which strain was developed from which other strain, if > > that were the case, or if they each were developed as separate > > varieties from an original strain. As far as I’m aware, they are not > > synonyms though; your strain is Pineapple. > > > > As I stated above, even your Pineapple Swordtail strain may vary from > > breeder to breeder — and that includes possible stightly different > > strains from various fish farms. You may even be disappointed by > > some, although there may be strains out there in the hobby that have > > even more intense red coloring in them; that remains unseen. If > > you’re unable to find any suitable Pineapple Swordtail females, I’d > > suggest obtaining Albino Swordtails and adding your male’s genes to > > their offspring. If you find them in a tank at your LFS accompanied > > by Albino males, remember that these females can carry several > > succeeding batches of fry with one mating (from an Albino male) so > > you’ll have to wait until the females are free of Albino fry to > > expect any fry from your Pineapple - Albino matings. Still, this > > should not prevent you from housing them all in the same aquarium — > > except for the Black Swordtails, which you’ll have to house > > separately to prevent fertilization by them. > > > > Most of these offspring will show the your male Pineapple Swordtail’s > > traits. If he has any Albino genes in his background, you may expect > > some (probably 25%) Albino offspring. Otherwise, the females’ Albino > > traits will be hidden, possibly to be expressed in future generations > > depending upon the arrangement of subsequent generations’ matings. > > This may be the best way to raise your strain of Pineapple Swordtails > > in the absence of females of this same strain, and be relatively > > assured the offspring will resemble your male. Ray > > > > > > > > — In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, “dewdude35″ wrote: > > > > > > sorry ray, did not mean to get off on the wrong foot here! not the > > > first forum I have been on, just took it wrong… I am a moderator > > on > > > a nascar forum, and I know misunderstandings happen, this group > > seems > > > to be one of the more active on the yahoo groups dealing with > > aquarium > > > life, I gotta say things seems to have changed since I had my > > > aquariums set up before… we used to bleach the gravel and filter > > out > > > to kill off the bacteria and algae! gotta wonder how we were able > > to > > > keep the fish alive! I certainly hope there are no hard feelings, I > > am > > > just here to relearn what used to seem second nature to me. still > > > learning my way around. I am in the midwest ray, lol no way I’d > > even > > > think of having fish shipped in freezing weather! appreciate the > > help, > > > and I have seen KOI versions of many species of fish, I have > > recently > > > acquired a second 30 gallon tank, and I plan on koi angelfish for my > > > main inhabitants for that! not sure if I like the koi swords, I have > > > seen pix of them on a few websites… kinda had my heart set on a > > trio > > > of black swords though… eh got time right? rest of my life to > > find > > > them lol, i just had sour grapes cause I was watching some at a > > local > > > pet store while my tank got started, they died in the tank, cause > > they > > > just do not take car of them like they should. I gotta wonder what > > > kind of markup they have on them to let so many die? > > > > > > > > > Tim > > > > > > > > > > > > — In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, “Raymond Wetzel” > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello Tim, By your latest post below, with the help of Lenny’s > > > > message, I trust you now understand that I was not referring to > > your > > > > original (previous) post on this topic but instead was addressing > > our > > > > member “texas_tears2000,” who replied to you with a message that > > had > > > > no relevance. You will note that in my message, I was referring > > to > > > > you in the third-person in my grammer and not writing to you > > directly. > > > > > > > > Wish I could help you out for sources of these Swordtail > > varieties > > > > you’re looking for. Not even knowing where you live, I couldn’t > > > > venture to take a guess, although you might try checking out Aqua- > > Bid > > > > if you really prefer acquiring them. Another very new Swordtail > > > > variety I’m sure would interest you is the Koi Swordtail. I > > would > > > > advise you to wait for warmer weather though, as even though heat- > > > > packs would undoubtedly be used, if they expired the drop in > > > > temperature would subject these fish to enough stress that would > > > > probably ensure their contracting Ich. Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > —In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, “dewdude35″ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > thanks, I have been to the badmans site before. I will look > > into > > > > the > > > > > other site, not a breeding issue, just curiosity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > — In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, “Lenny V. aka GoldLenny” > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dewdude/Tim, > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you mis-read Ray’s reply. He was replying to another > > post > > > > > in your > > > > > > thread that did not have relevance to your original post. He > > was > > > > not > > > > > > replying to your initial post. > > > > > > > > > > > > I’m sorry I can’t help you since I’ve never kept them and > > haven’t > > > > > even read > > > > > > much about the various color schemes being bred into > > swordtails > > > > > nowadays. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully, one of the members who is more proficient with > > > > swordtails and > > > > > > your initial question will reply soon. > > > > > > > > > > > > In the meantime, here is Badman’s and Mongabay’s profile on > > them. > > > > > > http://badmanstropicalfish.com/profiles/profile27.html > > > > > > http://fish.mongabay.com/species/Xiphophorus_helleri.html > > > > > > > > > > > > You might also want to also join the ALA - American Livebearer > > > > > Association > > > > > > for more specific breeding information on this species and > > other > > > > > > livebearers. > > > > > > http://livebearers.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Lenny Vasbinder > > > > > > Fish Blog - http://GoldLenny.blogspot.com > > > > > > (Links to any articles referenced in above reply are listed > > on > > > > the right > > > > > > side, alphabetically under Labels and also under Archives by > > Year, > > > > > Month) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > —–Original Message—– > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > > Behalf Of dewdude35 > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 10:05 PM > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: hi everyone, new to site… > > > > > > > > > > > > the relevance? all I was asking for was someone to ID the > > > > fish… I > > > > > have > > > > > > seen it posted online in various locations by different common > > > > > names… neon > > > > > > swordtail, pineapple swordtail, even candy swordtail.. > > > > > > my question is … Each site has similar pictures, with > > different > > > > > names for > > > > > > the fish.. but, subtle differences, I posted a pic on this > > site > > > > > tim’s tank, > > > > > > any help would be appreciated. sorry I rambled. then again it > > was > > > > > only a 3 > > > > > > dollar fish, so if it is too much trouble, nevermind. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have just started up an 30 gallon aquarium,community tank. > > > > > > I used to have 5 aquariums going about 15 yrs ago, many > > things > > > > have > > > > > changed, > > > > > > but much has stayed the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > — In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, “Raymond Wetzel” > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, I fail to see the relevance to Tim’s post, after > > reading > > > > this > > > > > > > over several times. I note Tim is looking for female > > Pineapple > > > > > > > Swordtails and female black Swordtails as well. The loss > > of > > > > your > > > > > > > Swordtails (of unknown strain) and the propensity of your > > water > > > > to > > > > > > > turn green doesn’t appear to help Tim’s needs. Are you > > looking > > > > for > > > > > > > help in these apparent mysteries to you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If this is the case, we’d be glad to try to help you > > undertsand > > > > what > > > > > > > may be happening in both circumstances. You don’t give us > > very > > > > much > > > > > > > to go on though, and water parameter readings are always a > > good > > > > place > > > > > > > to start; hopefully, you can supply them. You haven’t > > given > > > > any > > > > > > > details of your Swordtails’ environment, especially the > > > > female. What > > > > > > > size tank are they in? What kind and how many other fish > > are > > > > in this > > > > > > > same tank, if any? Are there sufficient plants for the > > female > > > > to > > > > > take > > > > > > > refuge in? Did you put the female in a breeding trap (this > > can > > > > often > > > > > > > induce releasing of premature/dead Swordtail fry in larger > > > > livebearer > > > > > > > females when they’re confined). Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > — In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, “texas_tears2000″ > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a male & female swordtails. > > > > > > > > They had babies. > > > > > > > > All babies die. > > > > > > > > My swordtail mom & dad’s tank keeps wanting to turn > > green,its > > > > not > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > the light,or direct light. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > — In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, “dewdude35″ > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wonder if I can trouble someone… not sure of my > > swordtail, > > > > > > > bought > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > a assorted, dunno if he is a pineapple or a neon sword, > > or > > > > if > > > > > > > those > > > > > > > > > are common names for the same fish, trying to find a > > few > > > > females > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > him, he is orange on the dorsal fin to the tail.. > > complete > > > > > > > > orange/red > > > > > > > > > on the tail.. red stripe on the lateral line.. broken > > red > > > > line > > > > > > > > below.. > > > > > > > > > he has a bluish reflection from his white areas… > > most” > > > > > > > pineapples” > > > > > > > > > sold here have no red, nor do they appear to have the > > > > bluish hue > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > them… looking online, there are few pics, and many > > use > > > > the same > > > > > > > > fish > > > > > > > > > pic for both common names… not to happy with the > > > > coloration of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > ones the local critter stores sell, but not gonna buy > > blind > > > > from > > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > > online supplier either, I can wait for the right ones > > for my > > > > > > > tank… > > > > > > > > > want to find a male and a few female black swords too.. > > he > > > > has > > > > > > > two > > > > > > > > red > > > > > > > > > velvet sword females keeping him company now, they are > > not > > > > too > > > > > > > > > interested in his advances though..lol guess my velvets > > are > > > > > > > > racist…lol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thnx > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Category: Philippines Internet Koi Society
