Angelfish laying eggs
I would have no problems selling the young angel’s (or any young fish I happen to breed if he wants them) to the LFS. I think there would be a better market in gourami’s or pleco’s (especially the dwarf pleco’s as they only order the sailfin pleco’s) though, as neither arrive here well at all and most tend to die before the owners can even put them up for sale. My problem is just getting healthy specimens of either of those types of fish to my home 
The LFS only buys male dwarf gourami’s (that’s literally what is on his order list, the employee showed it to me). Just ridiculous to buy only one gender unless it’s the supplier he’s getting it from only sells males for a reason, I wouldn’t know up here in isolated Alaska . I currently have one male flame dwarf gourami, who is doing very well, and has gotten quite colorful now that he is being fed well (unlike my LFS who claims to only feed their fish twice a week, which is probably when the employee works because I never see the owner doing anything except smoking cigarettes inside of his fish store, or sticking his unwashed hands into fish tanks to pick out dead fish, gee wonder why they are dead? *sigh*). I’m so glad he has a competent employee who works half the week, if it was just him working I’m sure all his fish would die or be sick all the time.
Amber
Raymond Wetzel wrote: > > Had been wanting to get back to this post, and have now found the > opportunity. I can see that your LFS’s owner may well be quite > profit oriented, going by those prices you mentioned, but then > depending upon where his wholesaler is located, part of his prices > may reflect the additional shipping charges if he’s getting his fish > from the “lower 48.” I’m sure you could easily beat his costs for > his fish when considering he wouldn’t need to pay shipping charges > for your fish. > > The “special breeder license” does sound absurd, if that’s his excuse > not to buy from local breeders, but I’m sure once he finds out the > price of your fish compared to the cost of his landed, he would be > more than happy to buy from you (why wouldn’t he). I can’t really > figure why he wouldn’t want to buy from local breeders anyway; here > in the Northeast, LFS’s are clammering to buy locally raised fish if > they’re quality, and ESPECIALLY Angelfish — which notoriously do not > take to shipping kindly (many are usually lost in transit, with many > more dying within the week as a result of the stress, which today’s > farm-raised Angels do not tolerate). > > Is there really something wrong with selling your young Angelfish to > your LFS at $5.00 each? (???). Possibly so, if you too are profit- > oriented, but you don’t need to be if you want to make money raising > and selling Angelfish. Just because he’s selling his young Koi > Angelfish at $14.99 doesn’t mean that having to set your price at $5 > is going to lose you money. You can’t expect to get near the same > price that he is getting, with all his overhead. If you do, you > can’t expect to sell very many near that price. > > The idea is that your money is being made in the quantities you sell > your LFS. Many of the Angelfish pages you see posted on Aqua-Bid may > go for much more than $5 each for young Koi Angelfish, but these > prices are aimed directly at the hobbyist for the most part, not at > the repeated sales you would get at your LFS if you were to establish > a working deal to keep selling him young Angelfish as he continued to > need more, as a steady customer. Certainly, it would not cost you > anywhere’s near $5.00 each to raise each of your Angelfish, when you > would be raising a spawn of averaging 200 Angels all at the same time. > > Here in the lower 48 States, the retail prices are about 1/2 that of > those you posted for your LFS, at the most — usually somewhat > lower. I would be thrilled to death if I could ever get anywhere’s > near $5 per young Angelfish and would be laughing all the way to the > bank. I would probably be dying of this laughter, that’s how gleeful > I’d be. Here in the Northeast, I get $2.50 each at most (usually > less, maybe $2.25) for the better strains of Angelfish, including > Koi, when selling “wholesale” to the LFS’s. The market for Angelfish > here has never commanded any higher price for them in the 45+ years > I’ve been raising them and yet I’ve always made good money with them > as they’re one of the best sellers. Of course, if you want to > consider your time as being worth $50 an hour, you could never make > money raising fish, but you need to be a bit more accomodating when > considering your own time. After all, this is a hobby, and part of > that time is your enjoyment in doing this, yet there’s still a good > amount of money to be made provided you don’t get too greedy. Ray > > — In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > , Amber Berglund wrote: > > > > The only reason I am hesitant to breed anything more than simple > guppies > > is because my LFS (well the owner rather) is rather… umm… > profit > > orientated only, which means for me to sell any of my babies to him > I > > would have to basically beat his wholesalers prices. Not to mention > I > > was told by someone in town that the LFS didn’t want their “tank > bred” > > fish because they have to have some sort of special breeder > license, > > LOL. I looked at the person and just couldn’t believe what they > were > > told! Apparently the owner of our LFS will make up anything if they > > don’t want to do business with someone in town. They bought all the > salt > > water fish from the lady I got my tank from for 200 dollars then > turned > > around and resold them (she was very upset since she stipulated > that he > > didn’t resell them, LOL right like that would happen, but she had > fish > > that were easily worth a hundred dollars just by themselves so he > got a > > very good deal on her fish). > > So basically I would have to sell him the Angel babies for probably > 5 > > dollars each considering he pretty much doubles everything (and > then > > some). He sells his wild angels (labeled assorted angel’s) for > 12.99 and > > the Koi are 14.99 or something like that, the lowest I think I’ve > ever > > seen any of his angels was maybe 11.99? Generally speaking a good > > portion of the fish he has for sale are in the 10-20 range with > just a > > few smaller fish under 10 dollars, and a few more expensive fish > like > > the synodontis that are 35 each, which I considered getting one but > > they’re so spendy. > > I actually wouldn’t have gotten another angel if the other Koi > hadn’t > > passed on, I only wanted 2 angel’s as I had heard that when you get > more > > they can gang up on tank mates, wanted to keep that to a minimum. > Also > > the LFS owner suggested them for a community tank (sheesh *sigh*), > I now > > know much better, LOL. > > Thanks for all the info, I find it very interesting that they are > > attracted to the wild coloring over the “man made” coloring > patterns. I > > like the fact that the wild pattern angel’s can change their colors > to a > > point, and prefer the wild Angel over my other, LOL. > > Also I assume it’s common for them to “kiss” much like severum’s do > when > > they fight for dominance? My angel’s occasionally grab each other’s > > lips, this started right before they started the egg laying, so I > had > > figured that I had two males, LOL. So far though my dwarf gourami > is > > easily the most aggressive fish in my tank, LOL. He even chases the > > severum away and stands up to the angel’s (by turning sideways and > kind > > of wiggling at them like “I dare ya” LOL). > > > > Amber > > > > Raymond Wetzel wrote: > > > > > > Amber, As opposed to the wild silver/black-stripe (natural) color > > > pattern which, by its very definition, is fairly constant it will > be > > > noted (as you’ve already indicated) that Koi Angelfish’s color > > > pattern can vary considerably even within a given spawn. Your Koi > > > Angel will not develop any more black spots, but you should know > that > > > his genes may carry a much wider variation of black spotting in > his > > > color pattern than what he is displaying. > > > > > > Many of the man-made strains of Angels will not change shades of > > > their color patterns in response to their moods. Any coloring > > > developed into such a strain either overshadows (hides) or > > > effectively eliminates the natural coloration’s chromatophores, > > > disabling the fish’s skin’s ability to change toning/shading. > > > > > > With having only two Koi Angels originally and thus having only a > 50% > > > chance of each of these two fish developing as opposite sexes, you > > > had an equal chance that both of these Koi Angels may have > developed > > > into males instead of just this one; sorry to hear the prettier > one > > > didn’t make it. > > > > > > As for “cross-breeding” (and I’m assuming you’re referring to your > > > two present Angelfish), no breeding these two types of Angels is > not > > > necessarily a “bad breeder” move in fish breeding situations such > as > > > this, but before being erroneously understood it should first be > > > noted that we are not talking about two different species here but > > > instead ONE species. Generally, cross breeding of two different > > > species is to be frowned upon, often resulting in infertile > hybrids > > > when it is accomplished, and most often being a > > > detraction/depreciation of the two different species involved (its > > > hard to improve on mother nature), rather than being an > improvement. > > > > > > Getting back now to “cross-breeding” two different color > varieties of > > > the same species, such as with your Angelfish pair, while most > better > > > Angelfish breeders will breed only within a certain color strain > to > > > retain these genes (possibly improving upon them whenever its > > > possible) and to raise fry developing into 100% this same strain, > > > These same breeders will have to out-cross after no more than 5 > > > generations of the same strain to prevent the weakening effects of > > > inbreeding — as one way to strengthen the strain and add vigor. > > > > > > The other way these breeders will restore vigor to their strain > is to > > > line breed, i.e., breed two separate lines (cousins) of the same > > > strain each for 5 generations and then cross these two individual > and > > > very similar (yet somewhat distantly related) strains. Sooner or > > > later though, an out-cross will have to be performed so as not to > > > loss fecundity of the strain — and such an out-cross would > > > preferably be to a wild or wild-type of the species — such as > what > > > your female is! Without knowing your female Angel’s genetic > > > background though, I have no way of knowing what other genes she > may > > > be carrying (if part of her genetic make-up is different). Still, > > > such a “cross” as you are referring to, with your silver Angelfish > > > and Koi, would be preferable to any other in maintaining the Koi > > > strain down the line. > > > > > > Getting back to your original grouping of three Angelfish, two Koi > > > Angels and a Silver (wild-type), if the lost Koi Angelfish had > been a > > > female — if all three Angelfish were allowed to be raised > together > > > as you would most probably have done, you should know that the > > > inevitable outcome would be the SAME. Your present male Koi > > > Angelfish would have paired up with you Silver Angelfish. It is > the > > > INNATE INSTINCT for any Angelfish to preferably first pair up with > > > the WILD-TYPE Angelfish whenever that opportunity presents > itself — > > > WITHOUT EXCEPTION. > > > > > > The 55 gallon tank would be an excellent size to raise Angelfish > in. > > > The challenge (largely uncontrollable by you) is to get to the > point > > > where the parents won’t eat the eggs or fry. Beyond that, we’d be > > > pleased to tell you how to raise the fry properly. At the moment, > > > the best grades of brine shrimp eggs are temporarily unavailable > from > > > many established brine srimp handlers, but a good grade is still > > > quite available and most adequate. You’ll note my previous post on > > > this whereby you can’t always expect great quality brine shrimp > eggs > > > from a LFS, which is why you’d need to purchase them direcrtly > from a > > > supplier (such as Sanders or Brine Shrimp Direct, both in Utah). > > > Except for the nominal shipping cost, you’ll find a good savings > when > > > buying them that way, and a fresh 3.5 ounce can will yield you > many > > > hatches of baby brine shrimp; probably enough to raise at leasst a > > > dozen spawns or more, since once the fry get to about 4 weeks old > > > they’ll need to be switched to another type of food anyway. Ray > > > > > > — In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > , Amber Berglund > wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the info Ray, I figured I didn’t have a good > > > environment > > > > for breeding angel’s, but was actually surprised that they > started > > > to > > > > breed as I didn’t think I had a male/female. My silver/black > > > striped > > > > angel is actually my favorite (she’s the female) I think she’s > much > > > more > > > > colorful than the Koi, but then the Koi did go through a case of > > > > fin/tail rot back in october and he still hasn’t fully grown > back > > > > everything, not to mention he just has hardly any black spots > like > > > the > > > > rest of the Koi Angel’s at the LFS seem to (or even the ones I > see > > > > online), will he develop more black spots or are the ones he has > > > all he > > > > will get? I noticed my other Angel got darker with food and age, > > > and > > > > also gets even darker when she’s mad, LOL. My Koi Angel doesn’t > > > seem to > > > > do the same thing, he’s white/orange with just a few spots on > the > > > top of > > > > his head. Originally I had 2 Koi Angel’s back in September, but > one > > > of > > > > them died in the fin/tail rot, which happened to be the prettier > > > Koi, > > > > LOL figures . Also would breeding these two different types of > > > > Angel’s be a “bad breeder” move for fish? I know it’s not good > to > > > > cross-breed with some other animals but wasn’t sure about fish. > > > > I could probably use the 55 gallon tank as their breeding tank > > > (since > > > > it’s currently empty), but I haven’t decided if I want to go > that > > > route, > > > > my LFS doesn’t have any brine shrimp eggs so I will have to > order > > > that > > > > and then figure out how to raise the fry properly, LOL. Perhaps > > > later > > > > down the line I will do this, after all my Angel’s aren’t even > > > fully > > > > grown they’re only about 3 1/2-4 inches at this point, but my > > > severum is > > > > out growing everything in the tank pretty quick, and is already > > > getting > > > > his light orange markings on his fins (nothing on his body yet), > > > he’s > > > > easily over 4 inches, and if he’d sit still I’d measure him, > LOL. > > > > I really do need to get some more pics up, I’ve just been so > > > preoccupied > > > > with the holidays lately. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > Raymond Wetzel wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Amber, While I regretfully have been having computer problems > > > (lock- > > > > > ups) lately, resulting in my being too busy to do any > > > > > posting/replying these last few days from my time being > backed up > > > > > through wasted efforts along these lines, please be aware that > > > your > > > > > present set up is not condusive to raising Angels and any > faster > > > > > response on my part would not have changed this. > > > > > > > > > > With your Angelfish pair residing in a “semi-aggressive > aquarium” > > > > > community tank with “a few ‘passive’ fish as well,” this would > > > > > preclude any possiblity of your raising any fry to even a > juvenile > > > > > stage even with the use of a divider (unless this were > solid). The > > > > > familiar and often-used “egg-crate” dividers would allow the > free > > > > > swimming of fry through them, only to be eaten by the other > tank > > > > > mates, and while the parents will endeavor to keep their fry > > > gathered > > > > > to the vicinity of the spawning site, over time especially as > they > > > > > get just a little older (by a week or so) these fry will > explore > > > and > > > > > wander where they will and get picked off one by one by the > other > > > > > fish in short time. > > > > > > > > > > You would need a solid partition, by as you’ve already seen, > even > > > > > this will not guarantee the potential fry’s safety when the > > > parents > > > > > decide to eat them as eggs. You cannot remove the eggs to the > 10 > > > > > gallon tank when you have a female Guppy there which will eat > > > these > > > > > eggs (or fry, if they hatch), nor could you expect the > angelfish > > > > > eggs/fry’s safety in the presence of Guppy fry — which are at > > > least > > > > > 5 times larger than Angel fry when they’re first born, and > will > > > make > > > > > a meal of the Angel fry. > > > > > > > > > > If you’re intent on having the parent Angels raise their fry, > you > > > may > > > > > try keeping the eggs with them in hopes they’ll soon settle > down > > > to > > > > > them raising them rather than eating them, which may take 4 > to 5 > > > > > tries or 15 to 20 tries (no way to know when they decide > finally > > > to > > > > > promote a new generation). You would need to install a solid > > > divider > > > > > of opaque plastic, which will prevent adequate water > circulation > > > and > > > > > proper filtration of the entire water column for the duration > of > > > time > > > > > needed to rear the Angel fry to a size to where they won’t be > > > eaten > > > > > by the other tankmates before you can remove this divider — > not > > > the > > > > > best situation in the tank’s normal maintenance requirements. > > > > > > > > > > An opaque divider, as a clear section would allow for the > fry’s > > > > > viewing by the iother inhabitants, which would then be > positioned > > > up > > > > > against it, trying to gain access to the breeding site, which > > > would > > > > > often be cause enough to cause the parents to eat their fry > rather > > > > > than (in their way of responding to this perceived threat) > have > > > the > > > > > intruders devour them — the parents would have no idea that a > > > clear > > > > > divider would hold the other fish back. Still, not the best > > > > > situation to raise Angel fry in, even with an opaque divider. > > > > > > > > > > Best results are always had when removing the Angel pair to a > > > > > spawning tank of their own, if you’re serious about raising > their > > > > > fry, and while this will remove any perceived threat (by other > > > fish) > > > > > to their spawn, as may have resulted in this last spawning, > again > > > > > there is no guarantee they will not continue to eat their > eggs, at > > > > > least not until they get the hang of how to raise them (if > they > > > want > > > > > to). Many breeders who don’t want to trust the indecisiveness > of > > > > > their Angel pairs will remove the eggs to a separate rearing > tank > > > of > > > > > their own (no Guppies or other fry in this tank), supplying > the > > > Angel > > > > > pair with spawning slates to exchange when their spawns are > > > > > deposited — rather than repeatedly clipping aquatic plant > leaves > > > > > until there is nothing left of the plant. > > > > > > > > > > BTW, your grey with black stripes Angelfish (I presume you > mean > > > > > Silver w/black stripes) is the original wild type of color > > > pattern. > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > — In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > , Amber Berglund > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Replying to myself again here guess no one knows anything > > > about > > > > > > breeding angel fish or they’re all busy, LOL. > > > > > > Anyways, the eggs are all gone today since I didn’t get an > > > answer > > > > > last > > > > > > night if I should remove the leaf or what-not. I figure one > of > > > the > > > > > fish > > > > > > had a nice meal over night Maybe my angel’s will go for > > > another > > > > > batch > > > > > > later or something. > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber Berglund wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I forgot to say that the 10 gallon with fry is guppies, > with > > > one > > > > > female > > > > > > > that’s been popping out babies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber Berglund wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay so my 2 angel fish apparently decided they really > like > > > > > each other > > > > > > > > recently. They were fighting a bit more lately, and I > > > figured > > > > > something > > > > > > > > was going on but didn’t think they would start laying > eggs > > > and > > > > > > > > fertilizing them. One (grey/black striped not sure what > > > kind it > > > > > is > > > > > > > > precisely) is laying the eggs while my Koi angelfish > comes > > > in > > > > > and is > > > > > > > > apparently fertilizing them (I can see a slight cloud > coming > > > > > out as he > > > > > > > > hovers over the leaf that the female laid eggs on), and > the > > > two > > > > > of them > > > > > > > > are definitely guarding the leaf. My question is this, > how > > > > > likely is it > > > > > > > > for these babies to actually survive in a semi- > aggressive > > > > > aquarium with > > > > > > > > a few “passive” fish as well? I could get a tank > divider if > > > it > > > > > might > > > > > > > > help somehow, wonder how much it will cost at my LFS, > > > afterall > > > > > it’s a > > > > > > > > 125 gallon tank, LOL. On a side note it’s nice to see > that > > > they > > > > > are both > > > > > > > > very happy in their environment. All of the fish have > > > increased > > > > > in size > > > > > > > > and color since I moved them into the bigger tank. > > > > > > > > I currently have a 10 gallon set up with 4 fry and an > > > expecting > > > > > female > > > > > > > > (well I think she has laid the 4 fry in there and there > are > > > > > more to > > > > > > > > come, but I could be wrong, LOL), could I just cut the > leaf > > > > > with eggs on > > > > > > > > it off of the plant and put it into the 10 gallon or > would > > > that > > > > > be a bad > > > > > > > > idea? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Category: Philippines Internet Koi Society
